Quote of the Day

“A state without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation”

Edmund Burke, Father of Conservatism

Advertisements

21 thoughts on “Quote of the Day

  1. That comment is total tosh. I am saying the nuclear family as you put it has changed and our approach needs to change in order to deal with it because our current approach clearly isn’t working. ”Change” doesn’t always require a move forward, sometimes we have to take a step back and correct a previous mistake in order to move forward.

  2. You could of course come up with more imaginative solutions to society’s problems, such as poverty and unemployment. In actual fact divorce and/or single-parent families are not the root cause of badly behaved children.

  3. And, presumably, after you have “corrected a previous mistake” and the nuclear family is re-established, this should never change.

  4. “In actual fact divorce and/or single-parent families are not the root cause of badly behaved children.” Really. You don’t find any correlation? My experience of life and review of statistics suggests that children of broken families are far more likely to be delinquent. It’s shocking that you would think otherwise. Let me help you.

    Funnily enough some people are motivated to be Tories based on the broken society narrative that you can’t see.

    “All of the people that have ever bullied me have been from broken homes. I think that’s made me realise why there needs to be a focus on family and community … that’s why I’m a Conservative,” she laughs. “I had a really crappy time at high school.”

    Source.

  5. The British Medical Journal and many others have reported on the damages caused by growing up in a single parent family. Id refer you to this:

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/308/6937/1114

    Similarly the Office of National Statistics has reported that mnetal illness is considerably higher (2:1) in single parent families which in turn could account for unruly behaviour.

    What im getting at is your ‘actual fact’ is ‘actual opinion’.

  6. Rod Morgan, Chairman of the Youth Justice Board, describes juvenile offenders
    as being: “the most troubled and troublesome children in our society” drawn mainly from families which have repeatedly broken down internally and externally.

    You are most certainly not going to change my mind, Daniel. I’m not really interested in this Tory Reform Group posturing where evidence-based policy is routinely substituted with hand-wringing appeasement to Leftie shibboleths.

  7. A lot of this applies to black people. Does black skin cause these problems? Of course not. I appreciate the importance of families but lets not take this crude approach to statistics. We’ve already seen how cack-handeed some of you can be with stats.

  8. Right, sorry for the delay, I’ve been a little busy.

    Dominic:

    1. “Really. You don’t find any correlation? … It’s shocking that you would think otherwise.”

    Dominic, I didn’t say I thought otherwise. What I actually said was that family break-down is not the ‘root cause’ of youth delinquency.

    There is indeed a wealth of evidence to exemplar the correlation between divorced homes and youth delinquency. However, if we accept that divorce disproportionally falls on the lower socio-economic groups, and thus on those who are less well resourced to cope, then obviously there is going to be a correlation of some strength between divorce and youth delinquency. Thus, I would contend that the root cause is not marital break-down but poverty.

    This should be evident in the simple fact that divorce does not have a similar impact on children from C1/C2 classes upwards. In fact the British Medical Journal report that Dan sites, acknowledges the importance of poverty:

    “For the children born illegitimate the most pertinent factor [affecting behaviour and development] was thought to be the financial hardship experienced by their families.”

    2. “Rod Morgan, Chairman of the Youth Justice Board, describes juvenile offenders
as being: “the most troubled and troublesome children in our society” drawn mainly from families which have repeatedly broken down internally and externally.”

    Firstly, Rod is not Chairman of the Youth Justice Board and hasn’t been since 2005. Minor correction.

    More significantly, I notice that you have not quoted Rod with saying all of that last sentence. Did he? And if so, is it a full representation of what the Professor said? However, just to deal with the quoted section, there is no conflict with my own argument. Juvenile offenders are indeed troublesome youths, however, I maintain that divorce is not the root cause.

    3. “Funnily enough some people are motivated to be Tories based on the broken society narrative that you can’t see.”

    I think you will find that the broken society narrative is not just about borken homes, but a plethora of problems that the lower socio-economic groups face.

    And finally. Please let’s credit one another with some independence of thought. I am not in hoc to any wing of the Tory party. And I’m saddened that you are closed to having your mind changed through debate.

    Dan:

    I’m not sure why you’ve sited the British Medical Journal report (?) Baring in mind my argument that family break-down is not the ‘root cause’ of youth delinquency, I’m not sure what relevance this report has.

    I would, however, repeat my last comment relating to the Edmund Burke quote of the day. Presumably, once you have re-established marriage and the nuclear family as they were pre-war, this should never change?

  9. * Where I metion “family breakdown”, “”divorced homes” and “divorce”, I mean, “single-parenthood”, “single-parent homes”, and “single-parenthood”, respectively.

  10. Daniel – What I was showing was that the BMJ reports that mental illness and other psycological problems are reported significantly higher in single parent families which in part serves to explain youth delinquency. For example I don’t know about you but i personally think that those individuals who go around stabbing people on the streets of london and others are mentally disturbed! The BMJ seems to suggest that single parent families, mental ilness and delinquency are linked.

    Anyway this is pure piffle. It is academically, scientifically and socially supported that it is far better for the development of the child to be raised by 2 parents. No amount of playing devils avocate will change that. Although I know that is your preffered role lol

  11. lol I do love devil’s advocate. But I’m not in that role. You know I’ve always been reluctant to accept that single-parenthood is the root cause of our problems.

    And your representation of the BMJ report is terrible.

  12. You are also reluctant to accept that Howe and Lawson were traitors lol… but that is for another debate… On Burke… i believe that we should take a step back and make people more respectful toward their elders and people in positions of authority. And no Im afraid I do not believe it should change if it is to the detrement of society which it currently is. I believe manners, respect and institutions like the family are timeless and should be treated as such.

  13. “A state without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation”

    And you have failed to prove that single-parenthood is a detriment to society by the way.

  14. Edmund Burke was renowned for his contradictions. One the one hand he was a staunch supporter of the American revolution because he believed that the British had trampled on the Americans ‘natural rights’ and they were right to revolt so that they could reclaim those rights. On the other he was a fierce opponent of the French Revolution which was based on similar monarchical tyranny. Change is welcome when it is constructive and progressive. But as Burke would wholeheartedly agree if we are undermining our heritage and traditions, of decency, respect and authority then it is perfectly natural to have (to quote Burke) ‘a revolution that returns us to pre established norms’

    As for me failing to prove single parenthood is a detriment to society… I have, you just haven’t listened. Better yet since you wont listen to me… or dom or anyone else for that matter… why don’t you prove to me your theory.. find me academics, researchers or others who think single parenthood isn’t a detriment to the childs devlopment and thus society. You won’t because you can’t.

  15. Sorry again for the delay… very busy.

    “But as Burke would wholeheartedly agree, if we are undermining our heritage and traditions, of decency, respect and authority then it is perfectly natural to have (to quote Burke) ‘a revolution that returns us to pre established norms’”

    With respect, this is not the Burke quote you initially used. My point is that in the case of the family unit, you think that it should never change. Is this not contrary to the quote you originally used? Moreover, Burke made his point about revolutions specifically to defend the English Civil War, not really the nuclear family.

    “As for me failing to prove single parenthood is a detriment to society… I have, you just haven’t listened.”

    Dan, I have read your BMJ citation, and have listened. However, it does not allay my scepticism. It is the causal link between single-parent homes and youth delinquency that I’m sceptical about. Your report makes no direct causal link between single-parenthood and youth delinquency, that is, criminal behaviour.

    It is my contention that youth delinquency is causally linked to economic and educational factors, not single-parenthood.

    Even if I were to widen my scepticism out to the link between single-parent families and adults with psychological, physical, or economic problems, the evidence produced in this report is minimal and comes with heavy qualification. With illegitimate children in particular, the report in fact suggests that “the most pertinent factor was thought to be financial hardship”. This rather reinforces my argument that economic factors are more important than single-parenthood itself. It suggests that the most ‘pertinent’ problem would be absent from a middle-class single-parent home.

    There are also methodological problems with this kind of data. As the report itself says, the adults analysed were born in the 1950s at a time when single-parenthood was far rarer.

    To wrap-up I shall re-state my case. The spatial distribution of single-parenthood disproportionally falls in inner city areas with poor economic and educational conditions, inevitably adding to the correlation between single-parenthood and youth delinquency. However, causation should be attached to economic and educational conditions rather than single-parenthood itself. Conversely, if single-parenthood was spatially distributed disproportionally in middle-class areas, there would be a much weaker correlation between single-parenthood and youth delinquency.

  16. Though I should say, thanks for continuing the debate Dan. I’m still awaiting Dominic Fisher’s counter-argument…

  17. However, I failed in my first and second rebuttals to take issue with PragueTory’s Google search listing.

    It turns out that the first web-site is out of action. The second web-site is a rather dubious source as an American anti-abortion campaign site. And, amusingly, despite Prague’s “review of statistics”, the third web-site that Google throws up says:

    “Despite a sizable body of research extending across various academic disciplines, the question of the causal connection between broken homes and delinquency remains unresolved and ambiguous.”

    The fourth web-site is hardly academic, however it does lend support to my case too:

    “If poverty causes crime and the incidence of broken homes is greater among the poor, then broken homes might be incorrectly blamed for causing crime.”

    Etc..

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s